A. Neimark / F. Roche / Los Angeles
/ December 2009
AN: Do you have a portrait to fit
with this interview ?
FR: NO. You asked if I had an
portrait to go with the interview ! For fifteen years now, we censured our
own portrait to represent R&Sie(n), we use an Avatar. This digital
hermaphrodite is not only a kind of fantasy, a coquetry, it s a strategy of
AN: Is the avatar a kind of
FR: The avatar de-personifies the
architect. It allows us to talk from somewhere else, not directly from “me.”
The identity of this character has allowed us to be as we want. I can lead
my daily life without being a representation of what I am expected to be.
It’s a way for us at R&Sie(n) to detach ourselves from the fragile egotism
of the architect.
AN: Do you see the avatar as a
construction of a character, as in fiction?
FR: In a way. The character allows us
to construct a schizophrenic identity that constantly changes its personality.
There is an American movie from the 70s, Sybil, about a girl with
sixteen different personalities that offer her the possibility of being
multiplied many times over. Schizophrenia is a strategy of resistance.
Resistance is a term that I am borrowing from the French philosopher
Gilles Deleuze. The tactic of using the multiple identity disorder allows one to
speak from somewhere unpredictable using a language that is unpredictable and
with an appearance that is unpredictable.
AN: So do you use this separation of
the architect from his public representation as a way to create architectural
narratives that escape one singular interpretation?
FR: Architecture is a tool for
articulating narrative. It’s not a final static product. In Hybrid Muscle
we designed a little building in Thailand’s countryside and we added an animal
to animate the project. The albino buffalo labored in lieu of an engine to
generate electricity that powered light bulbs and laptops. We were interested in
designing the animal into the architecture. So what was in reality a staged
performance seemed traditional in this countryside setting. It looked like a
ritual that blurred the boundary between the modern hygienic building and the
animal that made it dirty. So the animal was constantly shitting and stinking,
but it was also producing electricity. We could have put a photovoltaic cell in
place of the animal, but it was more interesting to create this uncomfortable
relationship. And in the end, the juxtaposition of the animal and the building
did not appear exotic; the ceremony seemed to be totally normal in the local
AN: I’d like to segue from the
narratives in your projects that you call “scenarios” or, in this case, a
“ritual,” to digital scripts that also structure many of your architectural
decisions. Could you talk about the scripts and whether you see them as parallel
or contradictory to the narrative-based scenarios?
FR: Any algorithm has a fundamentally
linguistic dimension. For instance: How could I ask to my mother to buy two
baguettes, if I add a little bit more to also get some candy without to scare my
mother on the real price of the baguette ? This child problem is an algorithm,
but with a non-deterministic approach, with a fuzzy logic. This is not so far
from the French philosopher Alain Badiou’s rewriting of the tale of Bluebeard
through mathematics. Badiou uses algorithms to develop a strategy that
articulates subjectivities and fuzzy logic through the theory of belonging.
Bluebeard and his five wives constitute a global system that cannot be reduced
to the addition of any particular relation between the monster and its five
victims. The assembly of each element in this closed system is greater than the
whole. The addition of indeterminacy to the choice of the next victim cannot be
described by a probabilistic approach that considers the sum of its parts. In
other words, ΣFx<∩Fx, if Fx is the relational function between the monster and
AN: So are you treating the digital
script as a verbal act of communication?
FR: Not quite. We do not say “if,
then, therefore” all the time; we mostly settle for “maybe” or for “perhaps.”
But it is difficult to integrate “maybe” and “perhaps” into computational
AN: The “maybe” and the “perhaps” are
conditionals that can destabilize a script. Can you invite unpredictability, the
“maybe” or the “perhaps,” into your digital inputs?
FR: It all depends on the input that
drives the machine. Is it purely an input of trajectories which are totally
predictable, totally computational? Or can we integrate a strategy of conflict
into the script, a strategy of disruption into the linear process? For example,
in the 1920s, Maurice Maeterlinck conducted research on the morphology of the
termite mound. He discovered that termites, which are blind, need to construct
and deconstruct their mound in order to constantly regulate the temperature in
the queen’s chamber, to keep it at equilibrium, thereby ensuring the
reproduction and the survival of the termite community. So the termites
constantly close the door or open it to bring in fresh air or to isolate the
chamber according to the outside temperature. Depending on the position of the
sun, day after day, they modify the position of the chamber using a kind of
pheromonal GPS. They smell themselves; they smell their own trajectories and
redefine their position or the conditions in which they are working. And because
they are opening and closing the door all the time, the direction of the wind
inside the mound is constantly changing. Of course, their pheromones are
incredibly sensitive to the wind, and so the termites constantly struggle to
redefine the zero point of their GPS, to regulate their own position. They
construct something that modifies the way they position themselves. This
conflict produces incredible structures constantly reorganizing the shape of the
termite mound because its construction can never be stabilized by a predictive
design. It’s always a work in progress.
AN: So, in a sense, you would need to
collaborate with a termite to destabilize your own inputs! Your proposal is that
machines can be imbued with intelligence. Could you describe what you mean by
the skyzoid machine, a term that appears in the title of your lecture
here at USC?
FR: Our concept of the skyzoid
machine is based on Marcel Duchamp’s Bachelor Machine. It’s a machine which
is not cybernetic. In other words, it’s a machine that does not define only on
its efficient mode of production. The skyzoid machine pretends to do
something while doing something else, thus creating a confusion about the degree
of its functionality, the extent by which it belongs to science. Immediately, it
questions the limits of the technology and its place in production. So the
machine actually participates in creating a blurriness.
AN: Do you mean that even the machine
participates in the production of culture?
FR: Yes, the machine’s role is not to
simply produce something in the phantasm of efficiency. The machine is both a
freak and an operating system at the same time. We try to introduce an
unpredictable behavior, or a fuzzy logic, to explicate the confusion between
what “they” pretend to do and what “they” are actually doing. In other words,
the skyzoid machine completely changes your relationship to reality,
leading to paranoia. Because all paranoia produces a parallel reality in your
mind, filtering perception, you can perceive it and describe it through fiction.
Lewis Carroll’s Alice in Wonderland operates on an immediate level when
he introduces illogic through pure logic, what in French one would call le
malentendu. Malentendu – the wrongly heard or misunderstood – is a
tool of linguistic exchange; it is a kind of stutter. We need misunderstanding
or stuttering in order to communicate.
AN: The stutter defines a moment of
misunderstanding between the physiology of the brain and the structure of
language, where something misfires. The machine breaks down. It’s a kind of
mental or biological sabotage. For the project Terra Incognita that you
worked on with Pierre Huyghe, you created an automaton, an albino penguin, a
machine with intelligence or with emotion, whose operational functions broke
when they became rusty. Do you see this as a contemporary version of the 18th
century Digesting Duck automaton by Jacques de Vaucanson?
FR: Yes! It’s not so far from
Vaucanson! You know when he presented the Digesting Duck there was a huge debate
about the mechanism inside. Everyone asked: Is it possible to mechanically model
the fantastic process of digestion? But after he revealed that there was no
mechanism inside, that the duck automaton held two disconnected chambers for
food and shit, that no chemical reaction took place, he was right away rejected
by the scientific community. Immediately, he was denounced as a charlatan. It’s
quite an interesting story. Before, he was a genius! Before, he was a prophet!
But at the instant of disclosure, he went from prophet to impostor. Where is the
real : in the trick, in the mechanism of the trick, in the illusion to recreate
life as the Golem of Rabbi Loew, or in the morale of the bourgeoisie which
disqualified Vaucanson, for his misleading.
AN: But wouldn’t you say that he was
both rejected and elevated? Vaucanson went from a scientist to a cultural
producer. I am curious to hear about the roles that science and culture play in
your penguin odyssey.
FR: When you decide to go on an
odyssey, you need to prepare. The preparation of the odyssey can become even
more important than the objective of the odyssey itself. So the preparation
became an odyssey all its own. In the first part, we needed to come up with a
story to justify our trip to the South Pole, which would not be the real story
of why we were actually going there. It’s very similar to scientific practice.
In science, you come up with a hypothetic or fake objective and you continue to
broadcast this objective of the experiment until you discover the character of
the artifact produced by the actual experiment. So we decided to do research on
the “albino penguin” and to come back with the proof that an albino penguin
existed. In order to guarantee that we would come back from the Antarctic with
the penguin, we had to bring the penguin to the Antarctic.
AN: So you built the penguin before
FR: I don’t remember…We came to the
South Pole to film something that we built at home and brought with us on the
boat. But I’m not sure it was the penguin….like Vaucanson’s duck, he was not a
perfect machine. But on this schizoid odyssey we found evidence of how global
warming was and still is transforming the topography of the South Pole. We
documented evidence of new mountains appearing out from under the melting snow.
We were perhaps the first humans to walk on some of these new cliffs. They had
never been naked like that before; they had always been hidden under meters of
snow and ice. So as ethnologists we came back to Europe with the report of this
transformation. We developed a new island through a honeycomb aluminum structure
in the Tate Modern and the MAM Paris. This island reacted to its environmental
conditions; it appeared and disappeared responding to the evaporation of water
in the space of the museum. The project modeled a dynamic process, not only to
promote a fight against global warming, but also to visualize its transformative
AN: Your architecture is always in
dialogue with nature, primitive and wild, or hybrid and industrial. Can you
elaborate on how you see the role of nature in your work?
FR: Yes. There is a big debate about
what kind of nature we want to preserve – do we want to preserve the nature we
create, our industrial nature, or do we want to preserve the very rare and
confrontational primitive nature, the risky nature, the wild? There is a
beautiful movie called Charisma by Kiyoshi Kurosawa. The plot revolves
around a grove of trees from the dinosaur period. The trees seem very weak and
fragile and the community wants to preserve them as a testament to its history
and the distant past. But at some point the trees begin to produce a toxin and
they completely intoxicate the ground and begin to kill the forest all around
them. Of course, the community decides to burn the trees, to burn the dinosaur,
to burn Jurassic Park. The inhabitants wage war against the nature that is not
domesticated, that endangers their industrial environment. But we want to ask
the question, can we de-domesticate nature through architecture? In the project
I’mlostinParis, we constructed a house in the middle of Paris with
glass beakers in which we grew Rhizobium, a bacterium that boosts the production
of nitrogen. This chemical hydroponic wall elaborates a relationship between
Eros and Thanatos, between the moralism of green architecture and the fear
stemming from the manipulation of bacteria as an alchemical process. Nature is
wild and heterotopic, not exactly the dream of Disney with its ideal
AN: Is your goal then to introduce
risk and danger into our otherwise tame, domestic life?
FR: Our aim is to articulate
antagonistic forces and to make visible their intrinsic nature, both on their
own and in the way that they conflict with one another. We are pushed and pulled
in many directions. We are both hostage to and dominated by the multiplicity and
the arrogance of disorder. We can neither reduce the noise in a fake reductive
strategy nor increase it by cynicism. R&Sie(n) is a tool of permanent
negotiation between Faust and Mephisto; it is a tool of the illusion of power.